Min-Maxing

@Kraterios
Great idea that you and your buddy came up with. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. It doesn’t touch the min/max skill problem but it’s at least something.

1 Like

Let’s play a thought experiment:

You say a 9* 50 Mandrake is UNACCEPTABLE

I point out that its identical to a 7* 70 Mandrake AND if you forced people to level their high stars then you might force them to either ruin their team balance OR you would accuse them of powerdropping. I wasnt even level 60 when I got enough to 10* three of the pvp store heroes, meanwhile my supports were all still 4-5*.

The only way I could keep my team in balance was by NOT adding more stars OR levels until the rest of my team caught up.

Either way there’s no matchmaking advantage for taking stars before levels. Levels simply give you a way to control your teams balance even without frags or gear (which are not cheap).

Most of this thread just appears to be people running bad teams. Minmaxing is an issue but people posting threads of their bad teams getting beat by teams that can barely qualify as minmax. Coolhands and Kraterios have both just posted crappy minmax teams getting beat up by others.

Also stop referring to powerdropping as minmax, it’s not.

Dude, you are abusing a broken system to milk easy victories. It’s cool. But don’t try to justify yourself. Leaving heroes underleveled on purpose to have easier matches is not the way the game is supposed to work.

And no, its not the same. They may have the same power, but since there are a lot of useless skills, leaving some heroes underleveled and underdeveloped while having massive stars is an advantage. You can see that with your own 10* silver Gammond. While he may have the same power than a 7* plat Gammond, yours have this power distributed between two useful skills and his basic attack, so it’s probably going to outperform the plat Gammond.

Making him gold or plat would add an useless skill and a questionable one, massively boosting his power. But at silver he already performs his best for PvP.

Don’t try to make yourself look as a good guy who is forced to abuse the system because its the only choice developers gave you to balance your teams.

4 Likes

We have already named a queen of min maxing, maybe we found her king?

1 Like

Were talking about levels, not promotions. Obviously promoting into bad skills that give your hero thousands of power is a bad idea.

That’s why I made the thread about fixing it, most skills don’t justify their power cost.

And stars enhance skill power too, they work almost exactly like levels.

And that really is the crux of the problem. Most games have skills that get better as you power up. So the bronze skill would be the worst, then the silver, then gold, then platinum would be the best. This makes it so people actually want to level to get the best skills possible.

In Hero Hunters it is a totally mixed bag. The first two skills are ones you have to activate, while the rest are passive. Sometimes the Platinum skill is the best (Ifrit), sometimes the bronze and silver (Dog). If HH made it so all skills were really good, you wouldn’t see this BS min/maxing anymore because people who go 10* Panzer would be at a huge disadvantage when they are missing 3 really good skills. Instead, as it is now, they are only really missing one good skill and the lower power levels more than makes up for it.

2 Likes

It’s been said before and I’ll say it again. Just remove skill levels from the power equation entirely. Leveling skills is EASY. Skill points recharge quickly and bucks are easy to get. It’s so much faster than than evolving stars or promoting all the way from green to platinum.

If skill level didn’t impact power at all, it literally would make it so that there’s no reason to min/max skills. Everyone would still pump up each hero’s “must-have” skills to their fullest like they currently do but now you could also max a trash skill even though the benefits are much, much smaller.

Currently if you have two 10* Platinum Mandrakes and one is maxed with all skills to 70 and the other is a 1/1/70/41 abuser, the power differential is about 1,500 points. Pretty significant when matchmaking and only gets bigger if it’s happening across five heroes. The min/max player is getting a very real matchmaking advantage. The maxed player on the other hand gets very little in-game benefit from his Level 70 Tomahawk or Relocation skills. The edge goes to the min/max player in a big way.

But if you remove skill levels from the power equation, those two Mandrakes have the exact same power level. Now the max player gets an edge from having a Tomahawk that does an additional 40k damage per use or an extra 50k from the relocation shot. Those damage numbers are drops in the big overall health bucket at high levels (especially in the new health/revive meta) so the advantage to the max player isn’t really significant. But it’s enough that people will say “why not?” and do it eventually because there’s no downside. I mean, the more developed hero SHOULD have the advantage, right? What kind of ass-backward logic is it to punish a player for progression?

6 Likes

Couldn’t agree more.

Great suggestion @FourFingers I fully agree, that will at least limit a lot some of the min/max issues. And there should be no reason why not to buy all skills upgrade to the Heroes you play with.

The fact that plat skill (15 per level) is valued more than double bronze skill (7 per level) is also pointless, when skill rarity doesn’t mean they are better or worse. Some heroes have bronze as their best skill, others have plat.

Taking these skills out of the power system would prevent min/max, and people who don’t upgrade heroes to avoid getting huge boost of powers (I remember seeing a lot of 10* bronze Panzers during the month she came out)

1 Like

Logical reasons why min-maxing is happening:

1.) Devs decided to let you jump from bronze to plat, without ever increasing your skills.

2.) They scaled the skill level to the toon levels (eg. Level 70 can level up skills to 70) which means every time they update, people also need to update their skills.

3.) #2 wouldn’t have been problematic but they designed the skills with a lack of foresight. For example, let’s look at Mandrake’s tomahawk level 1 and level 70, BOTH have a 50% chance to stun. BOTH for 6 seconds. If you think the damage is more important than the chance to stun, you should probably review more.

4.) Because of the poor skill design, essentially leveling them up just improves damage or amount of heal etc = people are incentivize to not touch useless skills. And we know there are a lot of useless skills: gammond’s gold, mandrake’s relocation, razorback’s passives, operator’s flashbang, I can go on and on on this.

5.) Why did they design the skills this way? Because they want you to reset the skill points. LOL

Imagine if for example they tiered skills into 12 levels:

  1. Three levels for each: bronze, silver, gold, plat
  2. If you want to level up your toon from silver to gold, you need to have both your bronze and silver skills at level 6.
  3. You need to farm for skills points not wait on a timer and reset them. LOL
  4. Every tier means the skills improve for the better. For example Panzer’s Breach and Clear at Levels1-3 only have a 40% turn meter at start, 60% at levels 4-6, 80% at levels 7-9 +more damage etc.
  5. Benefits for unlocking plat must improve all of the skills not just unlock the plat skills.

I bet there are other proposed solutions. But this min-maxing thing will only be solved by decisive overhauls. We don’t even have tangible responses on how they will address this lingering issue.

1 Like

FourFinger’s suggestion is WAY easier to implement, and would solve underleveled skills and people who don’t promote heroes into bad skills (like silver Gammond not being promoted to gold in order to not inflate his power with an useless skill)

You don’t want to level up Surge’s bronze because the damage increase is barely noticeable? Cool. You may fight a Surge whose bronze is level 70, and you won’t have an advantage out of it.

You don’t want to promote Mandrake into plat because his plat skill will boost your power too much for such a small effect? Cool, but enemy Mandrake’s plat won’t make him weight 1k more power than yours.

But in an ideal world, I’d rather have EVERY skill worth investing. I just think that FourFinger’s solution would be a great band-aid until they balance useless skills :slight_smile:

1 Like

Im not saying to implement my suggestion. Lol. Even I know an overhaul is unlikely seeing how passive they are. My point was they could have done this a whole lot differently and tweaked it asap when the cap was only 50-60s. As we move further to the game, the likelihood of them solving this decreases. But we aren’t hearing anything from the devs except some generic: “We’re doing something” but acts on a whole lot of nothing. They don’t even reply to threads claiming they read all of them, or post official updates on how they’re trying to solve this aside from “we’re trying to solve this.”

And you took my point on damage increases literally. My point there is that in the current design leveling up your skills, neglecting the functional effects of skills, is quite lazy. Of course you’ll get an advantage in damage when you level-up. That’s the point of it. But try calculating the ratio of that advantage to the power calculations and the matchup differences we see right now. That’s the cause of the problem. That’s what incentivizes people for instance to have a min-maxed hardscope with a tanky first aid drone and level 0 bazooka. And eitherway, good luck trying to get that gravity well to hit.

I think we all have adapted a way of life in this min-max reality. I am using some scrubs at 10-20k power to farm pvp points. But all of us would want to logically always aim to maximize the potential of our toons and compete fairly with them. But this system penalizes progress.

Im not sure if I expressed myself correctly. If they take skills out of power calculation entirely, a 7* gold Surge will have exactly the same power than another 7* gold Surge, regardless of skill levels. This gives advantage to whoever has maxed skills, even if its just a small one, which in my opinion is the way it should work.

The game shouldn’t punish for progressing.

Same happens with skills power value. Currently they cost 7, 9, 12 and 15 points per level (bronze to plat). But there are a lot of useless gold/plat skills. Why are they boosting the power of my heroes SO much when they are useless? Mandrake’s plat boost his power by a whooping 1050 points. But it only adds a total 10k damage to your team in a PvP match (since the skill can only activate once per enemy).

Upgrading Mandrake from gold 4 to plat, besides of the stat boost, gives an extra 1050 power to the matchmaking, making it not worth it. So you are going to have easier matches if you just leave your Drake at gold 4. Same with Panzer. She performs her best at bronze I, since you avoid any useless matchmaking “weight” due to her silver and gold skills, which are kinda useless for PvP. And this happens with a lot of heroes. We are currently punished for developing our heroes.

Skills should NOT give any power at all, like FourFingers suggested, even if this mean the total power of our heroes gets reduced.

3 Likes


I took some screenshots of my brother’s account. He is starting in the game. tell me if there is not an abuse of the system as well as the player who uses it

Fours suggestion would definitely help the min/maxing issue, but would it totally stop it? If I run a 10* bronze Panzer I am still going to be a few thousand points lower than a 10* plat Panzer, even if skills don’t increase power level at all? Granted it will be a much smaller difference since skills aren’t increasing the power level so much, but would it be enough? What’s the difference between a bronze and plat Panzer, around 2k just from the rank?

Rather tired of all this min/max . . .

Aren’t we all? Nightmare to fight…

Nah, my suggestion wouldn’t be a cure-all for what ails PvP. You could still abuse stars and bars levels to some degree but I definitely think it would help to easily plug one of the most glaring and counter-intuitive loopholes in the game. I mean, you gotta start somewhere, right?

1 Like

Do people STILL not get that the game knows when you underlevel skills?

It’s been punishing underleveled skills since May…